La femme celte

[la_marquise]

I'm blogging today about the myth of the Celtic Woman, over on Charles Stross' blog, for those who are interested. Comments are down there, at present, due to spambots, but you can comment here, if you're interested.

Skirt of the day: red and gold silk wrap.

Comments

[girlycomic.livejournal.com]

I don't know much at all past the perceived wisdom of that era of history, so found the article really interesting.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

I'm glad it was useful.

[timscience.livejournal.com]

This contradicts everything I have been led to believe in the pages of 2000AD.......

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Alas, I have ripped the scales from your eyes....

[marina-bonomi.livejournal.com]

Stands and applauds.

Thank you, I'm so sick and tired of what 'everybody knows' in history.

Can you suggest any serous reading for the non-specialist as an introduction to celtic cultures in the British Isles?

Any of them, I mean, not necessarily *all* of them.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

I'd start with the work of the archaeologist Simon James, who has written a number of excellent books on the various Celtic peoples. On Ireland, Daibhi O Croinin, Early Mediaeval Ireland; on Wales, either my The Welsh Kings (as Kari Maund), or, for the later period, A D Carr, Medieval Wales. For Brittany, The Bretons, Patrick Galliou & Michael Jones.
And thank you :-)

[marina-bonomi.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much!
Looking for these titles ASAP :-)

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

You are very welcome.
I forgot Scotland, which was bad of me. I'd look for ALan McQuarrie, Medieval Scotland.

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

Go, Kari, go!

I am not a historian, but I've read enough real historians and enough translations of ancient texts to stand on the sidelines cheering you on.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

:-)

[mevennen.livejournal.com]

>Peoples who speak related languages, even mutually comprehensible ones, often differ quite noticeably from each other in culture.

Downtown Swansea on a Saturday night; the Bell, Skenfrith, Saturday night. I rest your case.

I'm glad I live now, is all I can say.

Extremely interesting article - thank you.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Oh, me too.
I do not like the sound of mediaeval plumbing, not one bit!

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

Great article! I'm wondering how it would go down in Glastonbury though :)

[mevennen.livejournal.com]

K has given a talk on this to 200 Druids. Used to Ronald H beating them over the head with historical accuracy, they took it well.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

They were very decent about it, last time!
I *do* have an alternate persona (she's called Gail) who believes in Celtic Druidical Princesses and fairies and says things like 'your aura is all tingly!' who I keep mainly for Glastonbury and winding up certain Witchcraft shop male owners...

[tyrell.livejournal.com]

Bwahaha :)

[saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com]

That is telling it lie it is. A shame the people - the Neo-Celtic revisionists - won't be reading it.

Excellent essay.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

We can hope!

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Very good essay. This stuff needs saying, but you'll probably have to say it again, and again, and again...

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Oh, I have!

[stina-leicht.livejournal.com]

Great reading. I'm so listing that link on my Monday post. Thanks for writing it. In spite of being told otherwise, I didn't and don't believe in the "magical matriarchy that existed before Christianity" schtick.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

:-)
It's something that really annoys me, so I am happy for it to be spread out, and out, and out.

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

The essay is getting a really interesting reception - I love following the discussion and seeing how much readers have taken in and how their views change. We need more essays that do this!

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Thank you!
I need to go and look: I didn't have a lot of time to keep an eye on the debate yesterday.

[voske.livejournal.com]

That was a pretty good of 5 years worth of Celtic Studies, I can tell you! have you ever heard of this book,

Celticism, edited by Terence Brown (http://books.google.nl/books/about/Celticism.html?id=D3jfIFUj32IC&redir_esc=y)

?

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Thank you!
And yes, I know that one. It's one of a number of excellent recent books addressing the whole problem of pan-Celticism.

[xenaclone.livejournal.com]

Where do you stand on Brigit and Hilda of Whitby? Women abbesses and with at least the power and status of bishops.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Well, Hild was Anglo-Saxon, and one of a number of remarkable churchwomen there in the 7th and 8th centuries. As a culture, they were much more comfortable with powerful women, which blended well with the message of that the Irish missionaries brought about protecting and respecting women -- something more needed in Ireland than Northumbria, in fact, but Aidan came from that Iona tradition started by Adomnan.
Brigid is interesting, because she was probably not a person but, originally, a local goddess associated with fire, whose image was Christianised in line with the attitudes to women that the early missionaries and churchmen wanted to promote. I have a lot of time for many of these early Irish Christians: some fine defenders of human rights! Patrick was anti-slavery, for instance.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

Said powerful women were often (I think usually) royal, and the daughters and sisters of powerful kings.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Oh, absolutely.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

I used to work for an archaeological consultancy firm. I remember a conversation with the archaeologists about pre-Roman Britain. I was surprised and a little confused when a few of them suggested that the various tribes living in Britain in the1st Century BC might not have seem themselves as part of a pan-British culture. For years before hand I’d carried round in my head the idea that the various tribes would be politically distinct but that they would see themselves as culturally uniform but for some small differences.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

It's a common belief -- it derives from Irish saga material about the origins of some of the Irish peoples, which 19th century scholars took as early and authentic. More recent work has shown that they're anything but, but at the time, this was the best information available, and as a result scholars approached archaeological finds expecting to see pan-Celticism. The idea of diffusionism -- everything spreading out from a heartland in the middle East -- as promulagated by V. Gordon Child and others in the first half of the 20th century, played into this notion too.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Were those Irish origin stories explicitely meant as an appeal to unity or were they just the background to some stories and histories and pedigrees?

I’m now left wondering at the parallel between those Irish origin stories and the sort of stories that both sides, but mainly the Unionist side are telling about nationhood.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

We don't really know, alas. At the time they were written down, there was no Irish nation as such -- there were many rival clan-based kingdoms, each with their own agenda, genealogies and, probably, origin tales. What we have are the origin tales of groups who were closely tied to successful churches, and whose traditions became culturally important, like the Dal Riada and the Ui Neill.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

My dad has recently bought a house in Orkney. He studied up there about 5 years ago and has been visiting often since then.

Could you recommend a book or two on Orcadian history?

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Orkney! Lovely place, though there are very few historical sources before the 12th century. There's Orkneyinga Saga (trans. Palsson & Edwards), which, while not wholly reliable, is very interesting and influential. Otherwise, William P L Thomson, The New History of Orkney, which is now rather out-dated, but covers a lot of material down to WWII. Then there's Scandinavian Scotland, Barbara Crawford, which is good on archaeology but less so with written sources.

[danieldwilliam.livejournal.com]

Thanks for these suggestions.

I’ll see if he has a copy of the Orkneyinga Saga.

I think the archaeology might be of most interest to dad. We’re both interested in it. So, it will give us something to talk about. I come at it out of an interest in Classical history which in turn was born out of studying Roman Law at uni and then the lucky break of working for an archaeological unit. I think dad is trying to make some connection between the land he walks on and the land as it was lived in thousands of years ago.

The local archaeological community in Orkney will be just be packing up after their summer dig on the Ness of Brodgar. When I was up there last year we went to see the dig during their open day

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

It's very interesting place, for archaeology, and a wonderful place to live.

[dorispossum.livejournal.com]

I remember illuminating discussion we had about this one some time back - very refreshing to get some facts in exchange for those tiresomely comforting, compensatory fantasies about ancient matriarchies.

[green-knight.livejournal.com]

You're destroying people's fantasies with facts. This will not do!

In the light of constant infighting and changing alliances, the idea of a pan-Celtic identity has always stricken me as rather curious...

Cletic Women

[tina-anghelatos.livejournal.com]

Thanks for writing this - I really enjoyed it and it reminds me of the unsubstantiated arguments people make for the existence of a Greek triple goddess!

Re: Cletic Women

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Oh, yes! And the Great Matriarchal and Universal Earth Mother, too.