On Furphies: what we really don't know about the 'Celts'

[la_marquise]

I have my professional hat on, today, over on the SF Novelists blog. I'm talking about the concept of 'Celts', the origin of myths about their history and the law around women. You can find the article here. You can comment here or there.

SKirt of the day: flippy blurred floral.

Comments

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

It should entertain you to hear I'm reading The White Goddess for review.

O MATRIARCHAL PREHISTORY NO.

[cmcmck.livejournal.com]

What we really don't know about the Celts?

Most things really- even whether 'the Celts' as a cultural entity ever existed.

Ah, the joys of being an historian! :o)

Skirt of the day?

Ancient undergraduate era denim!

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

What I have found interesting is the classical writers' description of the diversity of the inhabitants of Britain - small and dark in the south west, tall and blond in the south east, tall and red-haired in the north. And for much of prehistory, culturally there were always major differences between the north and the south.

There was, by the way, a very good children's book about Welsh legends in my childhood - it was seminal for me. It contained retellings of the Four Branches and Culhwch and Olwen, and other later stories besides; it led me in the direction of the Emperor Arthur (and ultimately to so heretical an idea about him that I don't, at present, put it in writing, though it's at the root of my historical novel, which is totally devoid of any supernatural element. If you'd like to discuss this send me a PM and I'll send you my email address). I would, however, love to have the whole story hinted at in the "Triads" about Caesar's invasion, that turns the whole thing into a romance.

As a final thought, from the archaeological pov in particular, the dividing line between "Celts" and "Germans" seems to be very fuzzy; there even seems to be some fuzziness in linguistic features. Not that this last is particularly helpful, given the similarities of some grammatical features in Welsh and Ancient Egyptian.

[al-zorra.livejournal.com]

Here's a factual historical sequence that perfectly illustrates the final end game of basing one's thinking on phony history, the history of the infamous Selma, Alabama, of the infamous voting rights beatings, bombings, riots (white people are the rioters), murders.

Selma was incorporated in 1820. The city was planned and named as Selma by William R. King, a politician and planter from North Carolina who was a future Vice President of the United States. The name, meaning "high seat" or "throne", came from the Ossianic poem The Songs of Selma.[2][3] Selma became the seat of Dallas County in 1866.[4]

In other words, in honor of his imaginary heritage, he founded a city upon "James Macpherson's hoax (1760)of Irish-Celtic poetry cycles" ().

"Now who was the William Rufus deVane King?" () He was an infamous proslavery, fabulously wealthy slaveowner, who was (President) James Buchanan's gay partner -- James Buchanan who enabled secession in every way, right down to leaving the U.S. Treasury completely EMPTY when Lincoln was sworn in. And I do mean empty. They looted it. There wasn't even a bit of petty cash left for the federal government on the eve of the Civil War. The secessionists really expected the North would not fight, and stealing all the money would help with that -- they expected to be back in the White House within 6 months.

[cmcmck.livejournal.com]

Recent scholarship tends towards the idea that MacPherson's 'Ossian' wasn't entirely spurious but a considerable 'improvement' on some surviving fragments. As fakes go, it isn't bad! :o)

[al-zorra.livejournal.com]

Ossian went well with the obsession of the slave power with pseudo feudalism, taking Walter Scott (not his fault, and surely he'd be appalled if he knew) as the model for their pseudo jousts and tournaments.

Their desire was to recreate a society that was entirely class based, but with slaves instead of serfs. Not even necessarily African heritage slaves either, by this time, but anyone who wasn't worthy of being a master-owner-aristocrat. As it was in South Carolina and always had been, no one could run for office -- or vote for a candidate -- who wasn't wealthy -- and for the top political slots there weren't even elections, they selected out of their own oligarcy who would be senator and so on. No Jacksonian democracy voters' franchise exercised in the slave society, no siree bhob!

[cmcmck.livejournal.com]

'but anyone who wasn't worthy of being a master-owner-aristocrat'

So not much has changed on that side of the big pond then? :o(

[xenaclone.livejournal.com]

I understand that the Celts originally drifted out of what is now Germany umpteen thousand years ago?

[Citation Q.I.] Blue eyes have been traced back down the line to an unknown individual who was born on the shores of the Bospherus about 10, 000 years ago. Hence blue eyed people are technicaly Turkish and mutants [GGG].

I grew up in the Church of Wales where such characters as Saints Illtud [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illtud ] and Teilo [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Teilo ]to name but two whose names I knew well.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

That book is a brilliant piece of fictional poesis or something.

[al-zorra.livejournal.com]

The Red States (the heart of which is the former Confederate States of America) are talkin' all the same talk, walkin' the same walk and doing their best to bankrupt the country and repudiate all state debt, while pillaging other people's pensions that they worked for.

You be the judge, Judge! I just call 'em as I witness 'em.

Love, C.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

Emphasis on "or something"

;)

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

I came across a popular history that referred to "the great classicist Robert Graves" and my head met a wall.

[pengolodh-sc.livejournal.com]

There was, by the way, a very good children's book about Welsh legends in my childhood

In English or Welsh? If in English, what was the title?

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

English; something like "Welsh Legends and Folk Tales" by (wouldn't you guess) Jones - the one who back in the day did a translation of the Mabinogion.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

Church in Wales, surely? Disestablishment took place when my mother was a little girl.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

Specifically, Gwyn Jones. Just found it on line - part of the Oxford Myths and Legends series (had to look for it there as I think my younger daughter has my copy at the moment)

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

There's archaeological evidence of British chiefs selling other Brits to the Romans . I found my attitudes to this affected by the knowledge that once the English occupation of England was well established, the word that became "Welsh" changed meaning from "foreigner" to "slave" (this was the lower orders; the higher-ups rebranded themselves as English).

[marina-bonomi.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Kari.

Linked your article, and Kate's post, in a quietly ranting post of mine.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

And of course there's St Patrick: born in Britain, captured by Irish raiders and sold in Ireland, and later wrote to a British chieftain criticising him for allowing his men to raid Ireland for slaves.

[sharpwords.livejournal.com]

I have a copy of that, a Puffin paperback from the 80s which is now falling apart in a couple of places from 30 years of love.
(I had to go around all the shelves in the house till I found it; was worried I'd loaned it out too.)

[sharpwords.livejournal.com]

Great article, Kari. (I was relieved to see that I already knew most of the furphies were false!)

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

I love much of Robert Graves, but not this. I lack taste, quite possibly.

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

These things have to be addressed again and again, but at least, when you're writing in this kind of forum, more people will read and understand.

[xenaclone.livejournal.com]

/\ True. They've just [re]voted themselves female bishops!

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

Mine is hardback, which is probably just as well as it has had nearly twice that length of love from two generations.

It's actually rather funny. Both were born and brought up in London, but my elder daughter has always identified herself as Welsh while her sister was very emphatically English. But now that she's on the point of moving to North Wales she's suddenly discovered her roots (more helpful than mine; I'm from South Wales, which will be tricky, but her father's mother's family was from North Wales)