On Furphies: what we really don't know about the 'Celts'

[la_marquise]

I have my professional hat on, today, over on the SF Novelists blog. I'm talking about the concept of 'Celts', the origin of myths about their history and the law around women. You can find the article here. You can comment here or there.

SKirt of the day: flippy blurred floral.

Comments

[hawkwing-lb.livejournal.com]

It should entertain you to hear I'm reading The White Goddess for review.

O MATRIARCHAL PREHISTORY NO.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

That book is a brilliant piece of fictional poesis or something.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

Emphasis on "or something"

;)

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

I love much of Robert Graves, but not this. I lack taste, quite possibly.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

:-)
Bonkers. Complete hokum. I blame Fraser and Campbell for most of this, I really do. Though it makes a great hunting ground for novelists.

[cmcmck.livejournal.com]

What we really don't know about the Celts?

Most things really- even whether 'the Celts' as a cultural entity ever existed.

Ah, the joys of being an historian! :o)

Skirt of the day?

Ancient undergraduate era denim!

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

They almost certainly didn't. I wrote about that for Clarkeworld a couple of years ago. But it's a subject atht really upsets some lay readers -- Simon James, who is the most vocal on resisting 'Celticism', gets hate mail.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

What I have found interesting is the classical writers' description of the diversity of the inhabitants of Britain - small and dark in the south west, tall and blond in the south east, tall and red-haired in the north. And for much of prehistory, culturally there were always major differences between the north and the south.

There was, by the way, a very good children's book about Welsh legends in my childhood - it was seminal for me. It contained retellings of the Four Branches and Culhwch and Olwen, and other later stories besides; it led me in the direction of the Emperor Arthur (and ultimately to so heretical an idea about him that I don't, at present, put it in writing, though it's at the root of my historical novel, which is totally devoid of any supernatural element. If you'd like to discuss this send me a PM and I'll send you my email address). I would, however, love to have the whole story hinted at in the "Triads" about Caesar's invasion, that turns the whole thing into a romance.

As a final thought, from the archaeological pov in particular, the dividing line between "Celts" and "Germans" seems to be very fuzzy; there even seems to be some fuzziness in linguistic features. Not that this last is particularly helpful, given the similarities of some grammatical features in Welsh and Ancient Egyptian.

[pengolodh-sc.livejournal.com]

There was, by the way, a very good children's book about Welsh legends in my childhood

In English or Welsh? If in English, what was the title?

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Yes, precisely. We are dealing with a category created by an outside group, who lumped all sorts of people's together mainly by geography, drew parallels between their cultures which may not have been considered parallels at all by the cultures themselves and then became Authorities due to historical accident.
I had that book too. Good stuff.

[al-zorra.livejournal.com]

Here's a factual historical sequence that perfectly illustrates the final end game of basing one's thinking on phony history, the history of the infamous Selma, Alabama, of the infamous voting rights beatings, bombings, riots (white people are the rioters), murders.

Selma was incorporated in 1820. The city was planned and named as Selma by William R. King, a politician and planter from North Carolina who was a future Vice President of the United States. The name, meaning "high seat" or "throne", came from the Ossianic poem The Songs of Selma.[2][3] Selma became the seat of Dallas County in 1866.[4]

In other words, in honor of his imaginary heritage, he founded a city upon "James Macpherson's hoax (1760)of Irish-Celtic poetry cycles" ().

"Now who was the William Rufus deVane King?" () He was an infamous proslavery, fabulously wealthy slaveowner, who was (President) James Buchanan's gay partner -- James Buchanan who enabled secession in every way, right down to leaving the U.S. Treasury completely EMPTY when Lincoln was sworn in. And I do mean empty. They looted it. There wasn't even a bit of petty cash left for the federal government on the eve of the Civil War. The secessionists really expected the North would not fight, and stealing all the money would help with that -- they expected to be back in the White House within 6 months.

[cmcmck.livejournal.com]

Recent scholarship tends towards the idea that MacPherson's 'Ossian' wasn't entirely spurious but a considerable 'improvement' on some surviving fragments. As fakes go, it isn't bad! :o)

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Furphies are everywhere.

[xenaclone.livejournal.com]

I understand that the Celts originally drifted out of what is now Germany umpteen thousand years ago?

[Citation Q.I.] Blue eyes have been traced back down the line to an unknown individual who was born on the shores of the Bospherus about 10, 000 years ago. Hence blue eyed people are technicaly Turkish and mutants [GGG].

I grew up in the Church of Wales where such characters as Saints Illtud [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illtud ] and Teilo [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Teilo ]to name but two whose names I knew well.

[sollersuk.livejournal.com]

Church in Wales, surely? Disestablishment took place when my mother was a little girl.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

For a value of 'Celt'. The 'traditional' Celtic migration theory starts with Spain. But genetic connection and cultural identity are not the same -- cultures and languages mutate, drift, intermix and change over time and genetic links are far enough back that in terms of recorded culture, they aren't hugely helpful. Interesting, though.
I was delighted with the Church of Wales' decision to elect female bishops. They didn't have them in the early middle ages, not at all.
I have a soft spot for some of the Welsh saints. Interesting set of Lives.

[marina-bonomi.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Kari.

Linked your article, and Kate's post, in a quietly ranting post of mine.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

I'm glad it's useful/

[sharpwords.livejournal.com]

Great article, Kari. (I was relieved to see that I already knew most of the furphies were false!)

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Yes: I think if you've got any base in history at all, you know the furphies. It's popular culture that won't let go of them.

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

These things have to be addressed again and again, but at least, when you're writing in this kind of forum, more people will read and understand.

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

I hope so :-)

[woolymonkey.livejournal.com]

Good stuff. I am going to identify as a Corsican Celt* and demand an appropriate ethnicity tick box.

* No really. I have ancestors called Patrick and Kathleen and ancestors from Corsica. What is a island. Also it alliterates. What more could anyone ask?

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Corsica is an area I've never studied, I have to say.

[woolymonkey.livejournal.com]

Good stuff. I am going to identify as a Corsican Celt* and demand an appropriate ethnicity tick box.

* No really. I have ancestors called Patrick and Kathleen and ancestors from Corsica. What is a island. Also it alliterates. What more could anyone ask?