la_marquise: (Marquise)
la_marquise ([personal profile] la_marquise) wrote2012-10-08 04:20 pm

On duty, censorship, fantasy and madness.

So two things I read last week have set me thinking. The first was this post on principles by Nancy Jane Moore at the Bookview Cafe website. The second was a question posed on twitter by [livejournal.com profile] kateelliott on twitter. Two proposals, two remarks -- 'the first thing a principle does is kill someone' 'do you self-censor and why/' -- that spoke straight to my core, to that part of me that sits back and tries to drive. To, if you like, my madness, and the ways in which I work with, through, around the world.

I've talked before about rules and how they accrete in my head. I am trained to accept rules, to be mindful of them, to be, I suppose, law-abiding. I'm trained to be, as the tag sometimes notes, a Professional Good Girl. Professional Good Girls keep to the rules and remember all the things their friends and relations and acquaintances don't like, don't want, don't approve of. Professional Good Girls end up with a head full of voices telling them about all the things they are not allowed to do. Don't say X or do Y, because person P hates that. Don't think Q or wear R, because person S doesn't like them. Don't think the mean things, even in the space inside your head, because Good Girls don't. Good Girls sit still and accept the blame, the pain, the anger, because Other People matter more than they do.

It's not an easy space, being so Professionally Good. And that's just the bit about what I'm allowed to do and say and think.

Then, there's Other People. Other People have more rights than me. Other People are more important. Other People must be pandered to, served, obeyed, deferred to. It gets, frankly, tedious. Especially when all this Goodness and deferring runs up against a principle.

You see, I believe in principles. Principles matter. Principles are the flood defences, the storm shelters, the shields that hold back cruelty and injustice and unfairness. Principles stand between us and the madness of pure, unbridled self-interest. In my head, anyway. Principles matter to me, because they are at the foundation of who I am, of what I believe. I may be, as my friend M once said, the last old-fashioned socialist in captivity, but that's fine with me. I'm proud of my principles. It matters to me, to stand by them.

I don't want to bore you explaining what my particular principles are. That's another post. But the thing that caught my attention, between Nancy Jane Moore's blog post and Kate Elliott's question was this: what happens when the rules and the principles collide.

The answer is fairly simple. I get into hot water. Any time I have my throat exposed in public, any time I post one of my rants or long commentaries, you can be pretty sure that a rule and a principle have met. The last time I really got into an on-line mess? That started because I felt that a third party had been harmed, and should be defended. That's one of the principles, you see. I cannot stand by and let someone else be bullied, harmed or undermined. However much I hate conflict -- and I do -- I am not allowed to look away, because someone has to do something, and I can't be sure that anyone else would. Because Good Girls help. This particular behaviour -- which is a rule and a principle (It Is My Duty To Help, combined with Bullying shouldn't be condoned) has been getting me into trouble my whole life. But I can't unlearn it. In my head, that need -- that duty -- to stand up for others is bigger than any inconvenience or pain it may cause me, however much it may frighten me. In my head, it's never right to put my self-interest or comfort ahead of the need of others who are less privileged than me, who are being belittled or dismissed, who are being treated unjustly. I may, alas, be the stuff of which martyrs are made. It is my duty -- and my sense of duty is harsh and strong and unrelenting -- to speak out, to act, to Do Something, because somebody has to, but the only person I can be sure will is myself. It doesn't make me nice to know, sometimes. It certainly doesn't make me comfortable, to myself or others. There's a piece of me that empathises on some level with that cold, principled, unkind man Robespierre, who on a number of occasions chose what he considered the common good over his own wishes and desires. (I don't agree with his policies. But, pace Simon Schama, he wasn't a monster, only a man driven to his extremes by his harsh, unforgiving principles. Saint-Just may have been a monster.) Principles can be hard, and cold and even cruel. But they matter, because without them, the tentacles of selfishness grow too strong.

This attitude of mine is, frankly, somewhat annoying. It drove my teachers mad 'don't get involved'. It used to drive my colleagues mad, because I would insist on asking the questions that the powers that be did not want asked. It drives the marquis mad, because I get myself into messes and arguments. It drives me mad. I am harsh on myself, and, sometimes, judgemental of others. I am bound up with ideas of duty that drive me bonkers. But I can't not do it.

And yet, I self-censor. I think most people do, in one way or another. There are lots of reasons. Other people's privacy, for instance. It's not up to me to decide what to say, what to reveal, sometimes, when others are involved. Rules -- those noisy things that infest my head. There are things I don't say, because I know it will upset or annoy or distress others. There are a handful of things I don't say because I don't want to deal with the consequences. There are things I don't write about because I feel they are better expressed face-to-face. And there are lots of things about which I don't think the world really needs my opinion, where I don't know enough. None of this means I don't care about those things. But I have chosen not to join in.

And then there are the ones that make me angry. The places I self-censor because of the Rules. The places I am silent because I've been taught that I Am Not Allowed. Don't say X, Kari: Y won't like it. Here's a list of things I self-censor not out of principle, not for any of the reasons above, not even entirely out of fear, but because someone else's voice is too loud in my head.

American exceptionalism
Gun control
The Labour plan for I.D cards in the UK
Scottish Independence
Julian Assange
Private education (in certain circumstances)
My own blasted country and its history
Why I really, really don't enjoy sunshine and heat

In a sense, none of this matters. Except... One of my principles is that I should not silence others. Silencing someone, particularly someone who has less power, or less privilege, is never good. Free speech -- if you believe in that (and I only do up to a point, because I live in the UK which has different rules on hate speech to those of the US, say) -- must be granted to all participants in a discussion, not just those with the loudest voices or the biggest sticks. Any statement that begins 'Your opinion doesn't matter because...' is a warning sign. It's an attempt to control, to dominate, to insist on a single story. Other people may well be right or they may well be wrong, but they should be listened to with respect.

Which brings me, in a roundabout way, to fantasy -- and to sf, for that matter. Principles are out of fashion right now. Since the 80s, at the latest, we have lived, in the west, in the realm of the Individual. It's all about Us. Heroes are mavericks, doing it Their Way. Other people have to get on board or be run over.

I'm generalising, of course I am, but a lot of current sff is about personal success, personal goals, personal achievement. Even when this is set against a background that refers to improving conditions for others, the latter is very much a sideline, an also ran. The focus is on the hero and how -- while saving The Suffering -- he or she achieves personal gratification and happiness. There are very few heroes who walk away from their own interest for the sake of others. Sacrifice is as unfashionable as principles. You have to go back a way to find examples. Galadriel rejecting the one ring, and accepting that she must dwindle. Gandalf holding back the Balrog. Michael de Sandoval of Dorsai and his companions, holding the castle against high odds. The pilot who stays on board the dying spaceship to let others escape. These days, there always seems to be a get-out, a back door via which the hero escapes at the last minute to enjoy the glory. A happy ending, yes, but it's a cheat. Principles are not easy. Duty is not easy. And when we don't show that, when we cheat, we undermine them, we reduce them to toys and poses. We undermine their value and their importance. And we reduce those acts, those choices made by the characters to just high-jinks and flash. The story becomes all about the hero. The poor who are always better off under the stable-boy king become no more than window dressing, because they don't really matter to the plot. They are just there to make the hero look good. In a sense, such fantasy is dangerous, because it makes change look easy and cheap, and it seldom questions the idea that what really matters is the individual getting what they want. This kind of narrative silences the underprivileged, the poor, because it reduces them to tokens, subordinate to the personal success of the chosen few. They have no agency. They are a voiceless mass, awaiting rescue, and nothing more. That, frankly, is a pretty patronising approach. And this story -- Wam the trainee pilot saves the galaxy and becomes admiral -- is a lie. It's never that simple. History shows us that, over and over.

In the real world, self-interest and the interests of others will conflict, probably on a daily basis. Uncontrolled, unchecked, it leads to exploitation, deprivation, huge social inequity and the Conservative Party (also the US Republican party) (Yes, my personal political prejudices are showing). Greed is not good.

There's a reason why Yvelliane makes the choices she does in Living With Ghosts. A number of readers didn't like those choices much. They wanted her to live happily ever after. In the very first draft of that book (which was hugely different to the final version) she did. And everyone got ice cream and kittens. (Or, all right, that's not the case.) It was a rotten draft and a rotten ending. I was lying to myself, offering fluff and nonsense. Power comes with responsibility, and responsibility should -- must -- be shouldered. It's a matter of that cold thing, principle.

And it matters. It should matter in our genre, because books have power. Books effect those who read them, though seldom in the ways the authors expect or intend. When we omit people or belittle their experience, we harm them. When we imply that following our own self-interest is all that matters, we contribute to a culture that grows ever more selfish and unkind and unfair. PRinciples may be out-of-fashion, but they have a lot to offer us.

And there are authors now who still speak of them, write of them, write with them. Patricia Bray, [livejournal.com profile] pbray, whose heroes do what they must, what is right, in the teeth of their own wishes and needs. [livejournal.com profile] kateelliott, who writes about the effects of war and wealth on ordinary people. Ken MacLeod. Walter Jon Williams. Aliette de Bodard, [livejournal.com profile] aliettedb. Lois MacMaster Bujold, sometimes. The comforting ending, the personally advantageous decision are all too often not the best. The stable-boy king or space admiral is not really a hero, if it's All About Him. Because the world is always bigger than us, bigger than the hero. And that should be remembered.
Edited to add: Ursula K LeGuin has written about principles today, much more insightfully than me: http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2012/10/08/restraint/
Skirt of the day: denim.

[identity profile] emmzzi.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 03:28 pm (UTC)(link)
question, if I may.

How much do you care about losing friends and acquainatnces who do not share your principles?

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, this one comes up a lot! I regularly disagree with friends about things like this, and, by and large, it's fine -- unless they get sneery, which tends to make me snap. Acquaintances I have been known to walk away from, if it *really* matters. I can agree to disagree on a lot of things but there are handful -- racism, for example -- on which I won't.
I expect to be disagreed with. That's part of it. Other people's opinions matter and I try and listen carefully. (That's a principle, in fact :-))

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[identity profile] cmcmck.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)
But then Marat _was_ a monster and Charlotte Corday accordingly goes into my book of great women.

But then perhaps I'm not a good girl? I tend not to keep quiet for fear of offending someone- offending someone is sometimes necessary. That may have something to do with being a military historian or perhaps something to do with my personal and family history, I suppose!

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 03:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that's admirable, in fact.
It's not that they're offended, precisely (though they can be) -- sometimes offence is necessary -- it's that it's so inevitable and I am so tired of having to go round in the circle where I am *not allowed* to have expressed the particular opinion, if that makes sense? It p*sses me off royally, but I am also sick of the consequences.

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[identity profile] marina-bonomi.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 04:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Once again, thank you, thank you for all of this from another 'professional good girl'.
ext_12726: (Barmouth bridge)

[identity profile] heleninwales.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 04:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Regarding fantasy, I admit I haven't been keeping up with the genre recently because a lot of the new stuff just isn't to my taste, but I had got the impression that a lot of the "heroes" of modern fantasy would have been the "bad guys" in the past. Basically they have no morals or principles at all. I'm thinking of all the thieves, assassins, torturers, vampires etc and I hadn't noticed them saving the common people, just doing things that benefit themselves. It's one of the reasons I have stopped writing. The sort of thing I like to write seems hopelessly dated now.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 04:10 pm (UTC)(link)
It distresses me that trying to do the right thing (as opposed to the thing that's self-interested) is now dated. It may change. I hope it does.

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[identity profile] stevegreen.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 04:14 pm (UTC)(link)
You've reminded me of comments William Goldman made about writing the screenplay for A Bridge Too Far. The first wave of Allied troops who tried to cross were cut to pieces by machine-gun fire, so a second wave was sent after them. Goldman's view was that, having seen their comrades die and now knowing what they faced, those who followed were if anything more courageous, but he couldn't make that the crux of the scene because his audience simply wouldn't believe it.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 04:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with Goldman. That is great courage. And how discouraging that audiences wouldn't believe it.

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[identity profile] athenais.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 04:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I am full of Think on all of this and have many Opinions and Feelings which I will probably express in a short while (I have been a Good Girl tiresomely often).

But just at the moment I want to say I hope I have never been dismissive of your dislike of sunshine and heat, and if I have then I'm sorry.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 04:46 pm (UTC)(link)
You have not: you have nothing to worry about.

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[identity profile] ms-cataclysm.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 04:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Interestingly, I was reading bits of the early Horatio Hornblower books which spawned the whole become admiral and save the galaxy genre over the weekend.

I remembered the books as rather two dimensional Boy's Own stuff but I did them an injustice. Chilly, self-critical and downright twitchy, Hornblower is very different from the space legion of imitators he inspired and you so rightly criticise.

Forester exposes his hero's weaknesses to us in a few economical lines -the passage when he justifies stocking his cabin with luxuries to impress his fellow officers while leaving his wife, Maria, to fend off creditors ashore is as pitiless as anything of Austen's.

Forester also has a keen eye for the victims of war for whom there is no happy ever after; the galley slaves who help his hero escape and end up pressed for their pains; the promising midshipman who gets blown up; the French civilians caught in a raid on a semaphore station; even Hornblower's first wife,left alone ,poor and pregnant for most of their marriage.

It's true that we have some pretty grim genre fiction around, but there are also gems such as Naomi Novik's enfant terrible dragon asking all the wrong questions and shaming his companion, Lawrence, into questioning his conventional beliefs.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Forester was part of that generation of writers who were very influenced by ideas about duty and responsibility. And, as you say, Horatio is not a nice man, in many ways, and his author makes that clear.
I must read Novik!

[identity profile] xenaclone.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 05:03 pm (UTC)(link)
My 2p's worth

American exceptionalism = There was a time, within living memory, when a healthy percentage of Brits felt that way. Our Empire dissolved and we [mostly] got over it. One could reasonably expect the same to happen with America one day.

I.D. cards = personally, I can't see it happening. Too expensive, too difficult to 'police' and too accessible to cards being faked.

Freedom of speech = yes. As long as the speaker/writer realises that his/her words may bring them within the remit of the authorities if they are inciting violence, racist or being deliberately inflammatory.

[identity profile] mevennen.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 05:11 pm (UTC)(link)
P - this is Ronald Hutton's view: says they're in that phase and they'll get over it in the fullness of time. I think we're at a stage now where we're quite prepared to accept British iniquities, but less inclined to beat ourselves up over them, either. I don't know any nation on the face of the planet who haven't behaved like shits at one time or another and we are no exception.

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[identity profile] mevennen.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 05:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I do think that relatively few people examine the conflict between social convention (politeness) and principle (possibly not at all polite). Confrontation sometimes works, but often it just entrenches someone's views; giving alternative examples sometimes works (the main form of prejudice in the local, for example, is against Moslems - they don't know any, since we're in rural Somerset. One of my quiet triumphs is overhearing one of the locals comment on some issue in the media, on fanaticism, and then hearing him say "But Liz lived in an Islamic country and she says they're not all like that. She said most of them were really nice people.").

I tend to be pragmatic in terms of social convention: I won't always challenge views, though as you know, I will challenge behaviour. I don't always have the energy to take on people's views, even if the will is there. This is self interest at play, but I'm afraid age and exhaustion are taking their toll. And as Helen says, the nature of dissent becomes increasingly murky, but you know that.

Most of the people I know will accept different views. One of my pet hates is people who insist that they're right, and who won't listen to any case to the contrary. I will, quite frequently, abandon principle for self interest, but usually only when institutions are concerned.

[identity profile] cmcmck.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 05:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm familiar with the local prejudice here in Kent, which is against folks from the Baltic states atm, and I go out of my way to point out that part of my own ancestry comes, in fact, from Riga in Latvia and that those ancestors were Jewish, getting away from Russian pogroms in the mid to late 19th century and I tend to add that those who stayed became victims of the Sho'ah.

It's amazing how quiet one can make a café go! :o)

Don't get me started on prejudice against Roma people either- I also have that ancestry. :o)
Edited 2012-10-08 17:17 (UTC)

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[identity profile] mevennen.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 05:32 pm (UTC)(link)
I liked LeGuin's piece, but in this country, I'm getting very tired of being told that I and others like me have to exhibit restraint when (a) we do anyway and (b) a bunch of coke snorting merchant wankers have got scot-free of exhibiting any restraint at all.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 06:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes. I would like to see a lot more restraint on their parts... And, indeed, more living up to their publicly expressed principles (which, being me, I strongly suspect they don't really hold at all).
Thieves, Tories, we hates 'em.

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[identity profile] princejvstin.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 06:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Thanks, Kari.

There's a reason why Yvelliane makes the choices she does in Living With Ghosts. A number of readers didn't like those choices much. They wanted her to live happily ever after. In the very first draft of that book (which was hugely different to the final version) she did. And everyone got ice cream and kittens. (Or, all right, that's not the case.) It was a rotten draft and a rotten ending. I was lying to myself, offering fluff and nonsense. Power comes with responsibility, and responsibility should -- must -- be shouldered. It's a matter of that cold thing, principle.

Now I'm intrigued more to get to reading my copy of Living With Ghosts...

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 06:13 pm (UTC)(link)
I hope you like it.

[identity profile] kateelliott.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 06:17 pm (UTC)(link)
So glad you wrote this.

A related liteary conceit prevalent in Hollywood and US fiction is the "I can break the rules because I am good and/or right" of which there are many variations including "because I am good nothing I do can be bad" and as well the essentialism of success, which is directly tied both to American exceptionalism and to the peculiar form some American Christianity takes in is blnding of Manicheism, exceptionalism, capitalism and profit as a god-given gift, and essentialism.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-08 06:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes. And that belief that the individual is the single most important thing....
I think the British jingoistic version of this tends more to 'everyone must adopt our rules, because our rules are best'.

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[identity profile] aliettedb.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 06:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually much prefer your post to Le Guin's :) Thanks for sharing that. I deplore the easy equivalences (particularly promoted by movies) that you do good and are rewarded, without ever having to face hard choices. It diminishes heroes *so* much.

[identity profile] stina-leicht.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 06:39 pm (UTC)(link)
love this. thanks for posting it!

[identity profile] miintikwa.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 06:44 pm (UTC)(link)
I love this post. And it plays into my Plan for the trilogy I'm preparing to write. I need to think on the lack of happily ever after, myself.

Thank you for this. *hugs lots*

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-09 08:40 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you! I'm glad it's useful, too.

[identity profile] saare-snowqueen.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 06:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Excellent post. I hope my couple of dissenting comments won't put me on the stuck off list. I think you and I share many crucial opinions in common. I find it almost impossible to tolerate racist or homophobic comments from people I know, but I also get awesomely tired of listening to the militant anti-Goders.It is possi ble to be a Christian and not be a racist right-wing bigot or an illiterate fool.

[identity profile] mevennen.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, I agree with you. I've had more misogynistic crap from militant atheists than I've ever had even from rabid Christian fundamentalists. And the majority of the Christians with whom we are in daily contact are far more reasonable than some of the bloody heathen, as well. I am of course speaking as a bloody heathen.

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ext_13461: Foxes Frolicing (Default)

[identity profile] al-zorra.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 06:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Most people have to deal with the conflict between their principles and making people they like angry.

There are subjects which I can never write about here, for instance, or even speak of in any context except in the presence of the people I already know think the same way.

Which further means we can't write or speak honestly because people take what they don't agree with as disloyalty. The consequences are you are forever dead to them.

It's very painful.

I keep working on better techniques to express myself, as even this very morning when my brother blamed the mess that we call homeland security on "the terrorists," whereas I feel we made the mess ourselves, with dumping public money into private so-called security organizations, not thinking through anything -- and most of all, because what it's really about isn't terrorists but controlling our own population.

Love, C.

[identity profile] mevennen.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
It depends what you value more - the relationship, or the principle. With family, I value the relationship more. That, to me, is a principle: it might not be a very laudable one, but it's ingrained in me. Political or religious arguments on a small scale solve very little, in the end. People stop listening, or they end up ignoring you - indeed, they behave exactly the way that I behave if someone starts ranting at me about immigration or atheism or anti-abortionism or why women should remain in the home etc etc. I'm not too old to alter my views but I'm certainly not going to do so by being shouted at (I am not, by the way, in any way suggesting that you do this), either in a bar or on the net.

I suppose this is why most of us talk mostly about cats most of the time.

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[identity profile] anghara.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 07:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I love you so much right now.

[identity profile] pbray.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 07:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Loved this essay, then blushed to see my books mentioned at the end.

As you know, I loved LIVING WITH GHOSTS, while I suspect that I would have hated the ice cream and kittens draft.

Perhaps its my New England Yankee upbringing, but I've always believed that nothing is free, and every good thing has a cost. To me as a writer, the interesting point is where each character draws the line, what price they're willing to pay, and how that line moves over time.

Then, again, I'm the person who wrote a trilogy that can be summed up as "An exploration of what an individual owes society, and what society owes that individual in return." Of course it can also be summed up as "Never piss off a man with an ax" which is probably better for marketing copy.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-09 08:56 am (UTC)(link)
Nobody liked that first draft. (It had almost nothing in common with the final book, apart from some of the names and, I think, the scene where Thiercelin is visited in his bedroom by Valdarrien's ghost.)
As to Devlin... Those books should be required reading for anyone who wants to know what fantasy for grown-ups about grown-ups looks like.
Edited 2012-10-09 08:56 (UTC)

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[identity profile] birdsedge.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 08:01 pm (UTC)(link)
When it came to the crunch a couple of years ago (over a specific matter of principles involving fair treatment of a specific group of people) I was almost surprised to find that when it really mattered I still had principles and stuck by them.

Until something tests you, you just don't know whether you'll take the easy road or stand up and be counted. Some of us are never tested. It came to me late in life.

At the time it would have been much easier to turn a blind eye and I'm almost ashamed to say that I considered that briefly, but my principles drew a line in the sand almost without me thinking about it and that was that!

I'm still living with the fallout from that decision. It's brought joy and frustration in equal measure. I have to say, however, that I wouldn't have been able to live with myself had I chosen differently. It was the right thing to do and I'd do it again.

It was scary, though. At the time I said I felt like the grizzled granny standing at the gate with a shotgun when the bad guy came to call. Two years on I seem to have got away with it, but at the time I didn't know what this particulr bad guy was capable of.

I still don't really, but so far, so good.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-09 08:57 am (UTC)(link)
I admire you hugely for what you did in that circumstance.

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[identity profile] a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com 2012-10-08 09:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I also love this post. I also like it better than LeGuin's, because you are speaking about an "us", while she manages to distance herself from "them". As another PGG and also Professional Elephant Spotter (as you well know), I know that horrible feeling of hearing some of the voices scream not to say anything while at the same time compelled by Duty to say something. A colleague of mine used to say people like us were the Truth-Tellers. It's not always appreciated. I haven't reached a point where I am comfortable with it, either.

But...

I have developed some ways of dealing with it better. I don't usually worry about whether standing up for principles will jeopardize my relationship with someone else, BUT I *do* weigh the costs of my relationships with others. Does it make sense to argue with someone who is convinced s/he's absolutely right, if it will hurt my relationship with friends close to that someone? Not so much. Now if they *do* something wrong that hurts other people? I'm less likely to restrain myself.

I have found that it's far easier to speak up for principles at work or in public, rather than amongst friends. But I still try to count to 10 first, just to share the target with someone else.

But this is something you should remember, I think. Even though it causes problems, and even though people who feel the need to speak out end up with lots and lots of flak wounds, we often meet some of the best people and become friends with them precisely because we spoke out, and recognized each other -- even when the principles might not be exactly our own, there's something attractive about integrity. It's the kind of reward I can live with, and for most of the people I know who are like you, it's the kind of reward that reinforces the principles, the willingness to examine one's motives, and keeps a person reasonably humble about being right. Those are all good things in my book :-)

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-09 09:00 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, I think you're right.
I've burnt some bridges, over the years, because I *would* speak up -- this was always on issues where I felt a group with less power were being harmed or might be harmed. I think you're very sensible -- and much kinder than me -- in taking a step back, sometimes. But it's not in me. If someone does something really (in my view) egregious, I can't bite my tongue. I've had some big fights with friends over the years. But mostly they accept that this is what I'm like, thankfully.

[identity profile] gillpolack.livejournal.com 2012-10-09 12:15 am (UTC)(link)
We need more writers, for the issues are big and uncompromising. I am by nature and nurture a Professional Good Girl, but have been learning that other peoples' lack of awareness of consequences mean that I have to put myself in the picture or not exist at all. I no longer accept the invisibility aspect, but the rest - absolutely. We need cultural models for dealing with impossible situations. We need explanations that allow for the common good. We entirely and absolutely need societies where alertness and care for others is everyday, not exceptional.

A politician once said to me that writers are key to longterm social change - the ideas you articulated express precisely why this is so.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-09 09:05 am (UTC)(link)
I do not understand how people who don't think others matter function, I really don't. It's a place where my imagination just fails me, because I can't see how they can live with themselves, and don't lie awake at night riddled with guilt.
And yet, talking about principles and so on is not only old-fashioned, it can sometimes be inflammatory -- 'How dare you impose your morality!' -- which I do understand on some level, but I despair at the refusal to listen and the assumption that principles are the same as narrow moral codes, or merely an expression of some kind of puritanical, punitive ideology. I think the latter is a con trick pulled on us by the likes of Ayn Rand, deliberately making a false equation and promulgating it.
No-one should be made invisible for the ease or convenience or comfort of others.
And yes, we need more people to speak up and write. But how? I can see the barriers being built already.

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[identity profile] gillpolack.livejournal.com - 2012-10-09 13:59 (UTC) - Expand

[identity profile] anna-wing.livejournal.com 2012-10-09 04:28 am (UTC)(link)
Good manners and discretion in speech and conduct are not the same as either dishonesty or self-censorship. Self-control is what differentiates adults from children.

I fight the battles that I think that I can win, or where my intervention makes a significant data point, or where, even if I don't win, my intervention will make the other side more mindful in future interactions. I am utterly with you on dislike of heat, though sunshine is rather nice when the air is cool.

Change your "Rules". You're a professional writer, not a professional anything else.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-09 09:06 am (UTC)(link)
No, indeed. But sometimes being polite can mere tolerating or ignoring something you dislike, and that can be problematic.
You are, as ever, very sensible!

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[identity profile] anna-wing.livejournal.com - 2012-10-10 09:53 (UTC) - Expand
yalovetz: A black and white scan of an illustration of an old Jewish man from Kurdistan looking a bit grizzled (electric gentleman)

[personal profile] yalovetz 2012-10-09 08:13 am (UTC)(link)
This is very interesting to me, because I have never felt a conflict between rules and principles. I think I always examined rules to see if I could figure out how they grew out of underlying principles. If I couldn't see how a rule grew from some principle then I ignored the rule. So, to me, rules (or rather, the ones I accept as valid) are simply concrete expressions of principles.

Which isn't to say that there aren't different ways in which principles can be instantiated in rules and consequent conflicts. But, for me, such conflicts don't represent a rule/principle opposition, but something more tangled and complex.

I think I also have a different relationship to the concept of self-censorship. There are lots of things I don't say and lots of things I can't say. But self-censorship implies that the natural inclination is to say things and that the self-censorship kicks in to prevent that natural inclination being expressed. My own natural inclination is to think things. Saying them is a secondary step that has never come naturally. So rather than having to exercise self control and reign in what I say, I find that I struggle to do the opposite, to force myself into vocalising thoughts that I usually keep silent.

This does relate back to principles. Like you, I do feel like there are things I ought to speak out on. But for me, the conflict in doing so is not a conflict with rules, it's a conflict with my own inclination to not speak.

I don't know exactly how this relates to fantasy. But I do know that I'm attracted to stories that in some way manage to articulate some of the things that I find myself unable to say. I also know that I'm attracted to stories where the rules of the fictional world are expressions of underlying principles (including ethical principles) and where characters live conflicted and complex lives in which the rules and principles get tangled and messy. In fantasy terms, I'm most likely to find this in fiction based in fairytale, myth, and legend.

[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-09 09:11 am (UTC)(link)
My rules are a consequence of my upbringing and the way I'm wired. I don't tend to believe many other people are wired that way. The conflict is about my trained responses to be 'good' and my sense of the need to be just, if that makes sense. And I have a sharp tongue, and a quick one, sometimes, because I am very much my mother's daughter.
The marquis is more like you: he thinks and is often silent. I find it admirable, most of the time, because he still gets things done and makes his position clear. You are, I think, both more grown-up than me.
And yes on books. It ties together in my head because I am seeing so many books in which characters, to me at least, seem to have the emotional maturity of 14-year-olds, and in which individual success and satisfaction is presented as the only real goal. Which I find faintly sinister.

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[identity profile] xenaclone.livejournal.com 2012-10-09 01:36 pm (UTC)(link)
I was having an interchange on FB recently with a not-in-Glastonbury friend. I could have got back to them 'out loud' on one point, but was aware of other fairly recent discussions with a member of the anti vaccination brigade. [Even though the weight of medical opinion is slanted heavily against them]. I'd also been part of another lonng thread in which one of the protagonists seems not to understand the fine definitions between opinion, belief & experience.

So as not to encourage the crazy/rabid/alternative opinions, I decided to go Private Message to continue deliberations.

***

Of course, at other times it's quite fun to play 'poke the bear' [GG].


[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/ 2012-10-09 04:25 pm (UTC)(link)
That's a perfectly sensible way to handle it, and the one I prefer myself. Difficult discussions do not have to be carried out in public, and are often better when they are not.

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