Euro-Fantastic

[la_marquise]

So, I'm seeing a lot of posts and items lately celebrating the appearance of fantasies that are not 'European'. Which is fair enough. Writers will and have written books inspired by all sorts of things and places, it's what writers do. It's important that books reflect a world that is wider than just Europe or 'the West'; that it reflects the experiences of all peoples, not just a privileged (pale-skinned, all too often) subset. It's important that we recognise and respect the experiences of others, although we must *not* pre-empt their right to speak for themselves, arrogate that right to ourselves, silence their voices, misrepresent or warp their experiences and cultures for our own self-seeking ends. It's important that we recognise that, even if we are related or descended from that people or culture or both, the culture and people are not identical to us, will have changed, will have different interpretations and usages that we should not 'correct' or represent as debased or damaged or wrong; and that in many ways their interpretations, experiences, and usages are the primary ones and their claims on their myths, stories, traditions, beliefs, history and culture take precedence over ours. (And yes, this applies to me as a person neither Welsh nor English. Being of mostly Welsh descent doesn't make me Welsh, and I don't own that culture.)
But here's the thing. I'm European. Most of the European fantasies I have read and loved and delighted in -- and the ones I've read and found dull, and the ones that I hated -- were not written by Europeans. And that's fine. I believe writers should explore and expand and think outside their place of origin, and examine the stories of their ancestors and so forth. I am deeply unhappy with a model that says that a writer can only write about their very own backyard (a position which, amongst other things, restricts writers like Meera Syal, say, to only writing about being British-Indian and the 'British-Indian Experience', which is, frankly, a form of ghettoising). Some of my favourite books were written by outsiders or descendants. But -- you knew there would be a big but in here, didn't you? -- there's a knot of annoyance somewhere inside me at all this jubilating over the new wave of non-Euro fantasy.
Because, you see, many -- most, indeed -- of those books do not read European to me. They are based on our cultures but they are not rooted in them. They represent us, but they do not, all, speak for us or even about us. Mel Gibson can never be William Wallace, not with that script and that set of beliefs and assumptions about who I am, who the Scots are, what our history is. (Braveheart is an easy target, because it's so historically fake and so marked with Gibson's own prejudices. But it's also a well-known one, so...)
This does not mean that these aren't good books -- some of them are. It does not mean that I think they shouldn't have been written. All it means is that they feel like outside narratives to me.
None of which matters, of course. It's easy to argue that Europe has had its day, that we are a bunch of ex-Imperialists still whinging because we lost our Empires. That we have been culturally significant for far too long and we should shut up and let others shine. There is probably a lot of merit in this view. We spent hundreds of years plundering and silencing others. That's an inescapable part of the histories of at least some of us. We are not, of course, a monolith, and there are many parts of Europe which did not have that experience of Empire, or had it in a distant past, or were on the conquered, not the conquering side. (For the interested, Ireland did, in fact, have its colonialist, dominant phase, in the period from the 2nd down to the mid-9th centuries. Scotland, culturally, is an Irish colony, whose indigenous practices and leaders were supplanted and overridden by an invasive culture which remains the major one to this day, although in a distinctive regional form.)
But part of me still watches the currently dominant culture metaphorically shaking the dust of my stories, my histories, off their feet and moving on to something fresh, while declaring my past, my myths worn-out and useless.
They're still useful to me, thank you, in my home context. I still see the footprints of that past outside my windows, travel in its traces, speak and think and explain through the lens of its stories and experiences. And I will deny to my last breath the changes that the outsider narratives have tried to impose, the re-readings that simply feel wrong. I will not relearn my past to include liberated 'Celtic' warrior princesses and tree-cuddling druids. They are not there, they did not exist, they are a fantasy and they belong in fantasy. And they are not my fantasy. When I see an outsider reading European books and complaining that those writers don't have a right to say what they said, or that they got the -- European -- stories wrong -- I see red. Because the outside narrative does not trump that of the inside. It is not 'more right'. It can't be. It can only be different, and much of the time it will remain outside. (This includes anyone telling me that their coven leader/spirit guide/avatar of the gods told them that Mists of Avalon, say, is 100% true and I have no right to question is, or am 'too English' possibly to be right. Without even getting into the large amount of French influence on the Arthur stories, and the ways in which the Welsh stories borrow from the latter, and the ways in which the early traces of the stories are nothing like the story everyone knows, the bottom line is that that book is not history and, as a Briton, I get to say that as loudly as I want. My country, my story. And, y'know, my academic specialty.)
I really, really love the Cardinal's Blades series of books by Pierre Pevel. Part of that is, of course, because Pevel is drawing on Alexandre Dumas, who, as we know, I adore. But an equally big part of it is that, when I read them, I heard the voice of the Europe I know. They are rooted in our experiences, our interpretations. There are no high school heroes (and I am so over high school football team hero d'Artagnans) or kick-ass Buffy clones. The series reads French, not French-flavoured.
I am, of course, not French and I am myself guilty of French-flavouring and I get it wrong and I try to do better. I am not in anyway innocent of going outside my own culture and being careless, though I do try not to do it on purpose. I'm not better than anyone else, and I'm a lot worse than most. As I said at the top, I don't believe in putting writers in boxes of their own culture and not letting them out. There are reasons why I write what I do -- there's the whole write-what-you-love thing, and I love Dumas and Balzac and Sagan and Moliere and Hugo. I read academic French history for pleasure and have done so since my late teens. And then, I am, by training, a historian of early mediaeaval Britain and Ireland. The histories of the English, Gaelic and Celtic speaking peoples in the British Isles are work, to me, and I don't like to mix work of that kind with fiction writing. And -- and this is the one I rarely say -- there isn't much space for me to write fiction in my own histories and myths any more. It's pretty full, mostly with outside voices, and the Big Audience has declared it dull, over, cliched. As I write, I'm trying to think of a British writer currently writing British-set, British-inspired fantasy and I'm not coming up with many names. Stories based in the myths of the British Celts written by British Celtic writers or even mixed up mongrel writers like me is even rarer. I'm coming up with Mike Shevdon, whose books are partly rooted in English folklore, and, umnmmm... someone help me out. It's getting hard, going into bookshops, to find fantasy by British writers altogether (though they are not as rare as British sf by British women published here). We are there, but we are writing other things, or we are only published overseas. But the last major sff series inspired (partly) by British Celtic materials by a British writer I can think of is Gwyneth Jones' Bold As Love sequence, which was finished in 2006 (and is, as I said, only partially and obliquely inspired by Celtic or English myths, though it is very rooted in our recent histories).
And so, and so... I suppose what I'm saying is this: fashions change, cultures rise and fall in terms of their influence and importance, and this is how the world seems to work. It's good for old Empires to decay and face their own evils. But to people inside a culture, that culture will not feel 'over', those myths and histories are still part of them. They still need them, even if it is only within their own small space. Those stories may not be what outsiders think they are, too. (Personally, I am baffled by the 'hanging on to Empire' thing, as that has never been part of my experience as a British woman. Worried by and distressed by and guilty over, yes. And there may well be politicians who long for that kind of power, and scions of some upper class families who want to behave as though they still had their grandfathers' privileges, but they are not part of my normal experience, nor are their narratives the dominant ones I hear in our media. The problems caused by that Empire, yes: those are everywhere and we continue to struggle with them and -- I hope -- try to do much better, now.) But the bulk of may experience of the myths of my country have come to me in foreign accents, since 1980 certainly, and in some cases as long as I can recall. And now those outside voices are bored, feel -- in my head -- that they have wrung us dry and are ready to move on -- and -- and here's the kicker -- in some cases are saying that they are the ones who can say it best, far better than the peoples whose histories, stories those are first.
And that latter is not on, frankly. Certainly, step outside your home box, but do so with respect, please, and don't claim to speak for or trump the native voices. And remember that what bores you is still a living culture to someone else. And they get to go on valuing it, and telling stories within it.

Skirt of the day: heavy black cotton.

Comments

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

I would like to think I have something witty or useful to say in regards to the actual content of your post, but my first thought is actually wondering if you write your posts in something other than an LJ window or some such, which doesn't use or strips an extra paragraph returns from between paragraphs. I don't often notice it on shorter posts, but on longer ones it suddenly becomes a screen of text with no breaks!

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

Very interesting post, on a subject dear to my heart. I shall come back to it, but for "stories based in the myths of the British Celts written by British Celtic writers", I'd like to put in a word for Catherine Fisher, who's Welsh and has used Celtic myth on many occasions throughout her career - although she often treads other territories, too.

[mizkit.livejournal.com]

Okay, and having now actually *read* your post...

Brava. I ... well, see, the thing I love about storytelling is that there isn't any limit to how a story can be retold, re-imagined, re-envisioned. I'm not sure it's possible for any mythology or history to be so mined that it's run out of potential, whether the writer is from within or without. It's *certainly* true that a poor storyteller can make something look jaded, over-done and dull, but that's an entirely different story.

As somebody who gleefully rips off story themes from cultures and histories that are not My Own, per se--European rather than American, or Native American rather than European American (o how complicated it gets) I don't generally imagine I'm accurately representing the cultures I'm stealing from. I do my best to start from an informed platform, because I *do* respect the stories and histories I'm mining, but I'm a fantasy novelist: I'm never going to be writing the Real Story anyway.

And ultimately, y'know, it's not that hard to not read what I write if you don't like it, so the whole idea of dismissing it, or the place I'm coming from, as unworthy/tired/boring seems really peculiar to me. I mean, I know people do it, but it all comes back to harshing on somebody else's glee, and I just don't like that. People oughta be better than that. They should, as you say, have more respect.

(I think this response could have been summed up with, "Word!" :))

[cmcmck.livejournal.com]

I hear you loud and clear on this- I have Italian, Breton, Latvian Jewish, Scottish and Romani ancestry but would not dare to presume to speak for those cultures. English, though, is different- that I own, but even then, what I own is regional.

It's also something I get mighty annoyed over with ownership of WHO one is. I am, as you know, trans and I hate it when outsiders try to write trans people-they don't get it- not at any level, nor can they.

[wishus.livejournal.com]

You make some great points. No, I can't think of any current fantasies inspired by British/Celtic folklore at the moment.

...I'm going outside my box with what I'm writing at the moment (put to one side while I get on with writing my museum exhibition)because it's a science fiction children's story involving about a boy and a girl from a Chinese village. I wanted to write for my nephew so he can read something about a boy like him. So far the feedback has been good on the early stuff, but I'll be getting it checked out with my extended family as it progresses.

[clhollandwriter]

This. :)

[mirrorshard.livejournal.com]

We are European, and we forced our histories & narratives on the world. That means we don't get to complain when they do something of their own with it, and that we don't get to take theirs in exchange.

[marina-bonomi.livejournal.com]

Just a resounding 'Yes!' to all of it.

[gillpolack.livejournal.com]

Mark Chadbourn, Alan Garner, Terry Pratchett all use Britain in their books (as locals). I can't think of women who do who you haven't mentioned, but I think that's the fault of my memory rather than a lack.

For those of us who are very much in the Commonwealth, we're incorporating a set of values and cultural constructs into our work, I suspect ie the memory of Britain rather than the reality. I'm not the only Australian to still feel a sense of coming home when I visit the UK, and my family has been in Australia for 100-150 years. We share so much with Britain that it becomes natural to write about it as if we were the owners of the culture. But we're not. We're at the other end of the world on borrowed land and our interpretations are different and everything in your world is to us homely and exotic, both at once, for the animals and trees and seasons are strange and foreign, even as we know them intimately.

A really interesting set of interpretations is currently happening in NZ fantasy. It's not England and it's not supposed to be England, but to an untutored eye Elizabeth Knox's work and Helen Lowe's has a sense of maybe/possibly being European. That sense, though, is misleading, for they are writing within their own culture, which just happens to have that feel to it.

It's a fine line writing about ancestral or culturally ancestral stuff and appropriating someone else's living culture. Just because we left and want to interpret our cultural memory doesn't mean you aren't still living and growing and developing back 'home.' This is something that needs to be talked about. I'm glad you raised it, and I hope it gets discussed very thoroughly.

(And I need to get round to reading Pevel in French - I read a translation and it didn't feel comfortable to me. Even in translation, however, his writing is 100% French. I wish I could point to a book and say "That's the Australian equivalent.")

[duniazade.livejournal.com]

This is a wonderful post. Thank you!

[the-gwenzilliad.livejournal.com]

I spent years being worried about cultural appropriation because I come with an American accent and an American background from a region that kept English and Scottish balladry alive and well for centuries but stripped most of the magic out because it had no relevance to their godly lives. I've never been so afraid as when I stood up to sing an unaccompanied ballad for the first time at the folk club in the basement of Cecil Sharp House. I was terrified my lack of proper accent would be criticised and I'd be accused of cultural appropriation. That didn't happen. When people go places, they bring their stories and cultures with them. They bring all their assumptions and baggage both good and bad, too. Stories move with people. Myths move with people.

So if I want to write a story about the shadow of the queen of elfinland desperately clinging to life in the Tennessee foothills, or about the byplay of Irish, Caribbean, and Polish mythical figures in Deptford as those cultures mix together, I'll do that.

I've lived in London for nearly nine years now, and yes, sometimes it bothers me when people write about my city and get it wrong. But as an immigrant, my voice is never going to sound the same as someone born and bred in London. I can see magic where others see slums and despair, and my view is just as valid as anybody else's. If people can be immigrants, why can't their stories?

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

Kate Griffin's Urban Sorceror series is all about the magic of London, created from the collective life of the city, changing as the city changes. Her London has its own deities from the classic (the Fates live in the basement of the Transport Museum and have a cauldron full of PG Tips) to the quite unique (Fat Rat, the Lord of the rats of the London Underground). It's utterly location specific. Waterstones in Piccadilly has her books displayed under "London Fiction" as well as fantasy.

As for the rest, well, fantasy with a non-white cultural background written by a person of whatever ethnicity living in the West is still mostly informed by a Western cultural sensibility. I read some short stories by Aliette de Bodard (her Xuyan universe, very Orientalist) and found them utterly Western in outlook. Whereas Lukyanenko's Night Watch books (which I've only read in English) don't feel like that at all.

You have your own culture, you get to say what it's about. Don't worry too much about it. If US writers want to write nonsense about Celts, it's no skin off your nose, and if they're bored with it and want to write nonsense about Thailand like that cretin with the unpronounceable name, ditto. The SF/Fantasy world in English is (J K Rowling notwithstanding) essentially of marginal significance to reality.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes. (I mean, when I, a Los Angeles girl, can tell that a work is Europe-lite, or Disneyland Europe, I am disappointed. And yes, I am sure I screw up just as badly as my fellow non Europeans in my own stuff.)

[a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com]

I wish I'd seen some of the conversations that sparked this, because for some reason I'm not quite getting your point. (also, sick and end of semester...).

Is it that Eurofantasy isn't actually dead? or that people shouldn't re-write cultures, no matter which culture? Or both?

This sounds argumentative, and isn't meant to. I'm just not sure of the connection of people who misappropriate European cultures to the death of Eurofantasy. I think you know me well enough to know that I also cringe at any world-building based on any culture that doesn't ring true. It has to either be clear that the author is picking and choosing and playing, so that the reader can admire the creativity, or it has to feel right. This is why I think Braveheart and Mists of Avalon are still really good examples: there is the implication that we should believe they are truer that fact, whereas when someone like Pratchett borrows, we know he is playing, albeit with purpose.

[xenaclone.livejournal.com]

I've read some intriguing semi-historical novels based in approximately Medieval China. I regret I cannot remember the author.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

I go away for a few hours, and the comment thread has grown like Topsy!

One thing that occurs to me, re. treating 'Europe' as a homogeneous, imperialist lump, is that the tropes that have been most used in Anglophone fantasy (at least) have tended to derive from European cultures that, within the last millennium anyway, have not been major imperial powers, and in fact have been colonized by others. Ireland, Wales and Iceland were all subsumed by neighbouring powers, and Greece spent a good few centuries under the Ottomans. (Having said that, Greece is a different case, because its classical mythology was fostered by the rest of Europe: the folk traditions the grew during its occupation haven't been influential, yet.)

Of course, there've been plenty of English elements in fantasy too, the position of Scotland is more equivocal, and all parts of the British Isles contributed to the British Imperial enterprise in varying degrees - but beyond a (to me incomprehensible) obsession with heirs, thrones and succession, I'd suggest that the high-imperial aspects of Europe haven't contributed much to fantasy tradition. (And by the way, I share your bemusement at the idea that the average Brit hankers after the Empire - I've met maybe one or two people in my life of whom that could be said.) The vital arteries have always been far more subcutaneous. In fact, I'd hazard - albeit wearing an apotropaic necklace made from the neck-bones of freshly-slaughtered caveats - that fantasy-feeding traditions tends to flourish far lower down the social scale, and in cultures that are, to some degree or other, oppressed. Queen Victoria and a crofter in the Hebrides might have shared a British nationality, but the fact that one went to war with the Ashanti doesn't make it more okay to stomp on the native folk traditions of the other.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this, Kari. Cogent and powerful.

[aberwyn.livejournal.com]

Capitalism eats its young. Who considers "Euro-fantasy" dead, dull, over? Marketing people.

The one old permanent steady thing about marketing is its relentless search for the new transitory and novel item.

In short, I personally don't see this buzz as political at all, just typical garbage from the mouths of MBAs.

:-)

[aliettedb.livejournal.com]

Yes. This. Thank you.

[rcloenen-ruiz.livejournal.com]

Kari, what a wonderful, enlightening post. Even if I've lived in Europe for a while, I am still an outsider looking in on Europe and a lot of ideas I and my siblings had about Europe and all the countries in this area was shaped in part by the fiction that we've read that's set in this place. And while we have read history books and found the history of these places fascinating (they read like storybooks to us), our idea of what is Europe is still largely informed by the books we've read and the movies we've watched. (Oh Braveheart. I confess with some embarassment that we thought it was really true. But in our defense, that's how they marketted it.)

Personally, I don't feel that I am immersed enough in order to write about a culture that I've only begun to understand. I don't know if I'll ever write something that sounds European or is in any way European-like (setting and such).

I see the telling and sharing of stories in fiction or in poetry or in any other art form as a way of carrying on conversations with each other.

>>But to people inside a culture, that culture will not feel 'over', those myths and histories are still part of them. They still need them, even if it is only within their own small space. <<

Oh yes to this.So very yes.

[sharon murphy karpierz (from livejournal.com)]

"As I write, I'm trying to think of a British writer currently writing British-set, British-inspired fantasy and I'm not coming up with many names."

Ben Aaronovich comes to mind.

[anghara.livejournal.com]

I am European too.

And I rather love you right now.

[stina-leicht.livejournal.com]

i do so love it when you rant. [hugs] i also hope no one minds my continuing to write outside my box because... well... i'm just not going to stop. ;)